Sound Mind Podcast
Join us on our mission to cultivate wellness in the classical music world. Let's start the conversation. Learn more at www.soundmindmusician.org.
Sound Mind Podcast
Embracing Change: Elizabeth Rowe
It has been a transformative year for Elizabeth Rowe since stepping down from the Boston Symphony Orchestra, as she reflects on the profound emotions tied to her final performances. This episode explores themes of transition, the importance of presence, and the balance between loss and new beginnings, underscoring the idea that personal growth often entails embracing the ‘both/and’ philosophy in navigating life's challenges.
• Elizabeth shares her emotional journey since leaving the BSO
• Reflects on the complexities of her final performances
• Discusses the ‘both/and’ philosophy regarding loss and new beginnings
• Explores her evolving relationship with playing music
• Highlights the importance of community and support during transitions
• Emphasizes the parallels between music and coaching work
• Encourages listeners to embrace their own transitions and growth
Elizabeth Rowe is a Leadership and High-Performance coach working at the intersection of personal and professional development. She helps high achievers across all industries learn to thrive in demanding work environments and successfully navigate career or personal transitions. She is also the former principal flutist of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, a social justice advocate, and a public speaker. After her landmark equal pay lawsuit in 2018 The Boston Globe honored her as a Bostonian of the Year, calling her “The Fighter.” Her ongoing commitment to opening up dialogue about complex subjects led to her TEDx talk, The Lonely Onlys. Learn more at iamelizabethrowe.com
Welcome back to season four of the Sound Mind podcast and happy new year everybody. I'm your host, alex Hoffman, and we're starting off the calendar year for a second year in a row with the amazing Elizabeth Rowe, career coach and former principal flutist of the Boston Symphony. Elizabeth, welcome back to the Sound Mind podcast.
Elizabeth Rowe:Thank you, Alex. It's such a treat for me to be back here with you.
Alexandria Hoffman:Thank you. Yeah, so you know the drill. We start our podcast the same way every time, with the question how's your head and how's your heart today?
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, I love that question. My head is kind of buzzy in a good way, and in my heart I'm feeling a little bit of relief. I've been I have a big workshop that I'm hosting tomorrow, and I've sort of been struggling with my perfectionist tendencies and all of my like habits that have been rearing their sort of their various ugly heads throughout this process, and so I've sort of wrangled it into a place where I'm feeling more peaceful about it, and so I'm experiencing a little bit more calm today than I have been in the last few days.
Alexandria Hoffman:Oh, good, good, that's great. Well, thank you for sharing. Let's go ahead and jump right in. I mean so last July you announced you were stepping down from the BSO, and this time, almost exactly a year ago, we talked a lot about what that announcement felt like and how you came to that decision. So I'm sort of dying to know, one year later, how has it been for you?
Elizabeth Rowe:to know one year later, how has it been for you? You know it was a remarkable year for me. I really went into it with the intention of being present, of recognizing that this was a really a once in a lifetime experience to have had the position that I held with the Boston Symphony Orchestra, to be choosing to step down, to have an entire year where that information was public, to go through a full year knowing that I was experiencing a lot of lasts, you know, final performances of things, and not totally sure how that was going to feel for me, and what I really wanted to do was to be present and allow it to be. Whatever it was going to be, and it was. It was extraordinary.
Elizabeth Rowe:I felt so lucky, grateful. I was very well celebrated. That was very uncomfortable for me. I had to absolutely fight the urge to be like no, no, no, not a big deal. So I I just really tried to stand firm in the accepting the acknowledgement, which is not my strength, um, and so that was remarkable, at times overwhelming. I mean the the Boston Symphony has a tradition where retiring members are brought to the front of the stage for their final performances at Symphony Hall and then again in the summertime and to walk to the front of the stage just me like, not with my flute in my hand and stand there and just receive the recognition from the audience was absolutely overwhelming. Absolutely overwhelming, and I I was there for it. So I would just say it was an incredibly rich year for me and I feel just exceptionally grateful that that I was able to have that experience.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, it sounds like it was just a really special way to end your time, especially, and it's funny you say that it was like a little uncomfortable. I would think of you as a principal flutist having lots of solos. You get sort of recognition a lot, I imagine, in performances right a lot.
Elizabeth Rowe:I imagine in performances, right, yes, and it feels different in a way. It's like sometimes people speak about how vocalists and singers it's more vulnerable because it's just them and their voice. Right, there's no instrument and it's not like you can really hide literally behind a flute, but there is the instrument. That's kind of between you and the audience and it's I worked to make the instrument kind's kind of between you and the audience and it's I worked to make the instrument kind of disappear in a way. But also it's like that was the role that I was very used to and I was a conduit for the music and so it was sure they were acknowledging me, but they're also acknowledging, you know, beethoven or Ravel, and this was just just me and that was different, just me, yep, different.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, so it sounds like you were able to be present for the end of your time.
Elizabeth Rowe:I really was, and I didn't know if that was going to lead to like tears in performances or if it was going to lead to. I just wasn't sure what that was going to feel like, and I did. I did choke up a few times, um, speaking about just the joy and privilege of being on stage, um. And then there were some performances where I also did. You know, I think I still had enough of my kind of performer like you gotta be in the zone, like you gotta deliver, like that is so well ingrained in me.
Alexandria Hoffman:You understand the emotions like the performer.
Elizabeth Rowe:Right. So I would be like I would feel the emotions come and I'll be like is this, is this a safe time for?
Elizabeth Rowe:me like it's not the right emotional or no, and sometimes it was like, yes, I'm like okay, I'm getting a little, I'm getting a little shake in my sound, but it's like the loud part of some Strauss piece and that's okay. But if it's like, my second to last performance ever was daftness and my heart, I know and I get I just that's hard for me under the best of circumstances, right. And so I was like shut it down and like do your job.
Alexandria Hoffman:yeah, it's hard to be present in those moments, because being present involves like feeling all the the things and if you have a job to do, sometimes feeling those things can sort of get in the way of doing that job. Right, that's right, that's exactly right, especially with Daphnis.
Elizabeth Rowe:Especially with Daphnis, and that one has always been a struggle for me and I thought to myself, maybe my last performance will be less of a struggle. And then I was like partway through it and struggling and I was like, nope very consistent. My last performance of Daphnis is the same degree of struggle as all the rest of them.
Alexandria Hoffman:And that's okay. It felt very kind of grounding. Yeah, it's weirdly comforting to hear that even someone with such a you know storied career is still like you know, daphnis is still Daphnis, and it's humbling.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, yes, and it did orient me because I thought, okay, I'm a human.
Alexandria Hoffman:Right.
Elizabeth Rowe:Just me, because I thought, okay, I'm a human Right, just because it's my second to last performance in the Boston Symphony.
Alexandria Hoffman:I don't get magical powers. It's suddenly the best Daphnis you've ever played in your life, and yeah. Well, and speaking of Daphnis, you know we talked about last time this concept of doing a piece for the last time or being in a place for the last time. Do you feel like you've sort of made peace with that, or how did that process feel?
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, I mean I definitely have made peace with it and I think there's some grieving or some sense of loss. I mean I will genuinely miss some of the and you know, I got to play some repertoire and know that it was my last time, but then there's an enormous amount of repertoire that already was in the rear view mirror and I had done my last performance without knowing at the time that that's what it was going to be. And so you know, there's, there's, there was some kind of wishing for oh gosh, you know, it would be so nice to get to play this one more time or that, and it was okay. I'm very committed to the idea that you don't have to pick a team. It doesn't have to be like I'm so happy about all this or this is a disaster. It was both. There was some sense of loss and some sense of grieving of repertoire that I won't won't get to play again. And then there was also a lot of like yeah, and this is what I've chosen, and that's great too.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, we talked. The last episode we did together was this concept of both and and it was how you were applying. You were applying this idea to the to the end of your time there and it sounds like that that remained true for you. I mean, you can grieve, you know, the last time you played something, or the last time you didn't know you were playing something, and be, like you said, you know, grateful for the choice that you made or happy with the choice, fulfilled with the choice that you made that's right, and you know I haven't been to hear the Boston Symphony yet since I've stepped down.
Elizabeth Rowe:I was scheduled to go, I had tickets to go in October and then I ended up not being able to go. For the reason doesn't really matter, but I ended up missing that performance. But I did go hear the Berlin Philharmonic play a couple of weeks ago. They were in town. They were playing Bruckner. They sounded amazing and I was listening and I was listening to the flute playing and I was thinking, wow, he sounds great. And then I was like I loved playing brookner symphonies when I played them in the orchestra and then I was also like I don't want to be down there right now, like that's hard, like he did a great job and that's hard.
Elizabeth Rowe:That is hard stuff, and so I was full of like appreciation, respect, and also there wasn't a part of me that's like oof. I wish that was me, no sure yeah, that's interesting.
Alexandria Hoffman:I um, I personally I don't love playing Bruckner, but so I feel like for me I would be like, oh, I'm okay not to play that one, but I'm finding that, as I'm, you know, back in school for counseling, like I haven't gone. I've seen the CSO a couple of times since then. I've been back at symphony center a few times for different things and I'm still figuring out what it is that I'm feeling. Is it? Am I missing it? Am I? Do I wish I was on stage? Am I just glad that I don't have to? I don't have to go home and practice a bunch today? Like I think it's a mix for me of all all of the above. So it's interesting that you do.
Elizabeth Rowe:You think it'll be different when you go back and hear the BSO. I do Versus obviously, hearing Berlin, yeah, yeah, cause Berlin is not my orchestra and and I'd never heard them play. So this was a totally brand new experience and so, yeah, I think it absolutely will be different. And also, you know, there's a wonderful flutist now who's in my chair in my orchestra, which is no longer my chair and no longer my orchestra. But to hear someone else in that role, I think will be, I'm sure I will have feelings of wistfulness and all of the rest. So I'm anticipating that that's going to be a big experience for me also, and probably a mix, just like what you described going to listen to this ESO and how that is for you.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, I mean, you were in this chair for a long time and you know, watching someone do your old job, something that you were tied to for so much of your life, it's, it's going to. It's of course you're going to have mixed emotions. I would be surprised if you didn't, you know, have mixed emotions about it. So, yeah, speaking of you know, going to see them, I was curious. Last year we talked about whether you would keep playing and you said at the time I don't think I will. I'm curious have you played at all since you stepped down? What is, what is your relationship with the flute look like right now.
Elizabeth Rowe:It's right over here in its backpack, in its case still with the fingerprints on it from Beethoven 9 on August 25th.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah.
Elizabeth Rowe:And I haven't. I haven't, I haven't taken it out. You know it's. I think if I did, it would probably be a little bit emotional for me and I'm not drawn to it, and I think it's a combination of a bunch of reasons. I've been very busy since I stepped down. My life is very full. It's actually busier than I anticipated it was going to be, so it's not that I'm kind of sitting around going what shall I do with my time today?
Elizabeth Rowe:And I imagine we talked about this to you the last time, but I think you know I was really accustomed to performing at a certain level, with a certain kind of facility, with the. You know, if you think about music as an art form, you know there's the whole expressive component of it, yeah, which is so satisfying, but there's a huge amount of technical capability and and training that underpins that expression, yeah, and they don't, they're not separate from each other. So to really express yourself, yeah, with the kind of nuance and the stuff that I love, that really for me to access the expressive part of music making at least the way I have made music in my career would require being at least somewhat in shape, and I'm not anymore. So I think that that's probably it for me. You know, I'm not one to make like definitive proclamations for now and evermore, yeah, but my strong instinct is that it's going to it'll stay there.
Elizabeth Rowe:My instrument will find a happy home with another flutist who really gives it what it deserves. It's a beautiful instrument that should get played. I don't really think that there's much reason for it to sort of gather dust.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, yeah, I think that's beautifully said and of course, it all resonates with me right now. Like I've said back back in school and I'm, you know, I have gigs here and there, but it's there's a lot of time between them and the physical facilities required to continue picking up the instrument when I'm not playing regularly is becoming more difficult for me mentally and physically. I'm noticing, and to your exact point of, I only know now playing at a certain level, a high level, and to me, anything less than that, I don't feel good about it. I don't feel like it's me and I don't feel like I just can't. I don't want to do it. It's not how I want to.
Alexandria Hoffman:Like you said, I don't want to express myself that way. So it's been really interesting to figure out what kind of maintenance do I have to do to feel good about my flute playing while I'm still doing these intermittent things? But I remember when I told people I was going back to school, I didn't say I was quitting the flute at all, but a lot of them immediately asked me. The first thing was like are you going to sell your flute? And I was like I'm not even, I'm not even thinking. No, yeah, wow.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, yeah. Well, did you find that people had strong feelings about that Like on your behalf, where they're like don't do it or do it?
Alexandria Hoffman:or lots of people continue to tell me to keep playing and that it's that you have to keep playing, You're too good to quit, you have to keep going. And I'm curious if people it looks like maybe people said that to you too.
Elizabeth Rowe:I'm sure yeah. And I mean, how do you experience that when you hear that from folks?
Alexandria Hoffman:I'm literally. I just rolled my eyes because that's sort of how I feel. I know it's said with good intentions and I think people understand.
Elizabeth Rowe:Well, maybe they don't, I don't know, but I it's annoying, I guess is the best way to put it. Yeah, I think you know my I certainly got a lot of that and I think part of it. I mean, there's so many layers to why people, I think, are sad when somebody like you or somebody like me steps away from this art form, either temporarily or partially, or permanently or fully, and and I know you're not stepping away but your your life is expanded to more in it now. But I think you know I was in the Boston Symphony for 20 years. I think people in the audience really do feel like it's their orchestra in that sense, and they, I think there's a loss for, for audience members, when somebody that they've maybe enjoyed or just recognized for all of these years is no longer on the stage.
Elizabeth Rowe:Sure, and I think sometimes people can forget that we're actual humans. Yeah, we have. People can forget that we're actual humans. Yeah, we have, we have lives and yeah, um, there's more, there's more to it, and that you know we're, just because we have the ability to make music at a high level doesn't mean that there's an obligation to do that and we don't owe that to the world, to the audiences, to anything it's a privilege to be able to do it, and also it's not a requirement, and I think that's not. I think if people were to slow down a little bit, they would probably come to that recognition. But I do think when people see someone with talent like you, they're like but you should be using that talent. And it's like well, you have multiple talents that you are wonderful at, alex, and that you are interested in, and so you're not under any obligation to make other people happy with your choices.
Alexandria Hoffman:And you made it very publicly.
Elizabeth Rowe:That was an intentional choice that you made and I wonder how did you deal with some of that kind of feedback that you got from both, I'm sure, people in your close circles and also I'm sure lots of people were happy for you me much. I was really tried to put myself in their shoes and understand their experience and I get it. Um, and then there were some people like there were one or two colleagues in the orchestra that were like, did you think this through? And I was like, oh no, I guess not of course I did.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yes, I mean.
Alexandria Hoffman:I've never known you to do anything without so much intention behind it, so I find that question very funny.
Elizabeth Rowe:It was pretty funny and I was sort of like do you not exactly that Like and I think I don't know anybody who would sort of make a decision of that magnitude kind of in a rash way. And so it was pretty funny because that was sort of. Their first response is like are you sure you've thought this through? And I think that was just their way of saying they couldn't imagine making a choice like that. So it didn't, it couldn't relate to it.
Elizabeth Rowe:And I get that too, because, you know, 10 years ago I wouldn't necessarily have been able to imagine making that choice and wouldn't necessarily have related to it, related to it, although I think I might've had a little bit, maybe more of an ability to maybe guess or imagine what would be occurring in somebody's world that would inspire a decision like this. And you know, I think one of the things that I've been, I think one of the things that has helped me with this, is because I've been so intentional about my own process and about naming and acknowledging my own experience, less anchored in my own truth around all of this. Then that might have kind of knocked me off my footing a little bit, but it was interesting.
Elizabeth Rowe:It was kind of an interesting thing to experience throughout the year.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, I mean, it takes a lot of courage to make such a big, a big decision for yourself and for your life and for your career, especially, you know, at the top of your game, so to speak. You know, in the BSO it's. I think many people and I may have said this last time just have a lot of respect for, for just the big decision you made at the point in the career at which you made it.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, thank you for that. And you know, I think this industry can sometimes feel like there's only one acceptable choice or one acceptable path. I see this for people in music school when they leave school. You're certainly, you know, like broadening a path. I don't know how you would describe it, like what you're up to. Would you say you just you're on, you got multiple paths that you're going at once. Like how would you talk about it?
Alexandria Hoffman:That's a great question. I'm sort of just trying to do it all in a way that's meaningful to me and I don't know what that means. It feels like multiple branches that, like yeah, are growing at different speeds, at different rates, in different ways.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, I love that.
Elizabeth Rowe:I love that and that's very rich and dynamic and probably challenging in a lot of ways, yes, and there's a lot of potential choice for you because you've got all those branches that are kind of doing their thing.
Elizabeth Rowe:And I think for many people there was this idea that there's only like one path or one branch and that's it, and so making it more visible that there are other ways to run your life, there's other ways that you can be. You know we don't have. Because we are good at something doesn't mean we have to keep doing it. Because we've done something for a certain period of time or invested a certain amount of effort or training or education into it doesn't mean that that needs to be our primary means of supporting ourselves. Like there's all sorts of ways that a life can unfold that has music in it, that don't have to look like sort of the one narrow path, and so I think for me, one of the things that I'm very glad to be able to be a voice for by example and not just sort of talking about it is precisely that, like there's choice.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, this idea of choice is and I think a lot of people rightfully, I understand why I like have that scarcity mindset about jobs, about a career in music, and it's a lot of what we talk about in our, in our workshops with young musicians is this idea that you can build a career in music in so many ways and build a career period, not even just in music, but like it can include, like we said, like other things that are important to us. I mean, you were doing both and for a while, both being a career coach and playing in the BSO, and I imagine that at times was a difficult choice in terms of just balancing your life too.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, it was, and I mean I think that's ultimately the reason that I'm not doing both right now is that it was pretty clear to me that it wasn't sustainable to do both at a really high level, and that is something that is a consistent aspect of me and who I am is that I tend to want to do things at a pretty high level.
Elizabeth Rowe:We could discuss whether that's perfectionism or excellence or where that lands, and I'm very much aware of that whole kind of aspect of things and I think I I do have a real commitment to doing what I'm doing at a high level and and I also am human and there's only so many hours in the day and I do I was recognizing my limits as far as what, how, for how long I was going to be able to sustain doing these two kinds of work that are very different at a very high level, and so I. This last year was pretty intense, but I knew that it was just a year and you can sort of handle things differently when you know that there's an end point as opposed to like this is going on and on and on forever.
Elizabeth Rowe:Where are you and your schooling, by the the way, in terms of endpoints?
Alexandria Hoffman:I will graduate in spring or summer of 2026. So next summer I'll start a year-long internship, at which point many people stay at their internships. They get offered jobs from their internships, which, as a musician, is just sort of a crazy concept to me. This idea that there's so many jobs but it's basically guaranteed employment so wild, yeah, absolutely wild.
Elizabeth Rowe:Do you already know where the internship is going to be? Do you choose it? Is that something that you can be a little sort of focused about where you want to land?
Alexandria Hoffman:Yes, I can and I sort of choose where I want to apply. It has to fit certain parameters set by school, set by licensure requirements to practice in Illinois. But they give us a lot of choice and autonomy in that decision. So I think I'm going to be looking at group practices where I can work with a lot of different therapists, because I like working with people and I like getting a sense of what it's like to be in a group practice setting, and that is a place where I could sort of recruit you know my own clients eventually and bring in my own clients, and that is obviously very appealing as somebody who wants to work with a very specific population of people. So that's that's exciting to me. And the part of a group practice that I think is great is that there's not as much individual hustle that comes with like running a private practice and sometimes running a nonprofit Right, and I I'm sort of trying to get away from the hustling part of my job.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yes, I hear you on that. Yeah, and I'm sure.
Alexandria Hoffman:I'm sure you do as a as a coach.
Elizabeth Rowe:Absolutely, and that's been a huge learning curve for me is I'm now an entrepreneur and I've been a salaried employee since I was 23 years old my whole life.
Elizabeth Rowe:Just paychecks arrived in my bank account, like sometimes they were small and sometimes they were big, but they arrived, yeah, and and also it was like enormous effort and accomplishment to get the job and then to, of course, get tenure, but then then it was just the sort of doing of the job itself. It wasn't the supporting the business of it or the infrastructure of it, right, like I was in there just doing my piece of it, but I wasn't responsible for all of it, right, and as an entrepreneur it's. It's like I was talking with somebody and they were like, oh, you can make your own schedule, and I was like I absolutely can, and if I don't work, I don't earn an income, and that's a very different kind of vacation is different when you're self-employed, right, when you're an entrepreneur, yeah, it's been very, very different for me. I don't have a lot of family members who do this, so you know my husband's in the Boston symphony, so this is like brand new muscles for for me.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, I was, you know, shifting towards now you're doing this full time. What has that been like? You know, how do your you said your days look different. Right, but how? How else do they look different? How does your life look sort of different now?
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, it's. It's interesting I I was very aware early on of a shift in my kind of sense of time horizon, in the sense that when I was in the orchestra I was always kind of scanning the horizon for what was coming next, like when is Daphnis coming? When is that big, huge brand new modern piece with a pile of notes coming? Like, when is the chamber players week, where I have like eight chamber music rehearsals on top of orchestra, on top of this, on top of that. And so I was kind of always looking ahead to so that I could be prepared. And it was very rare in my career with the BSO where I just kind of put my flute down and didn't really think much about what was coming next. Like, even if I had a stretch of time off, I was very aware what was on the other side of that time off and and I was kind of monitoring like, am I going to be prepared? Do I know that repertoire? How am I going to get through that week? Like, what's that going to look like?
Elizabeth Rowe:And my work now is very different from that, so my schedule might be very full In some ways it's fuller than with the orchestra but it's more about, you know, know, being very much in the moment. So if, if I speak to four people in a day and I'm having four 90 minute conversations in a day, that's a lot of being present and a lot of listening and a lot. There's no like zoning out, there's no like times in rehearsal where you're just your brain is elsewhere because they're working with violas or whatever it is. It's like very, very, very present. So I'm tired at the end of that.
Elizabeth Rowe:Um, and it's not work that I kind of prepare for in the same way that you prepare for performance, sure, and it's very much about being super attuned to the person that I'm in conversation with and it's about the energy and the presence and the listening that I bring into the conversation. So I have a high level of commitment to being the kind of listener and thought partner that serves my clients. So that requires a very high level of commitment, but it doesn't require that kind of future scanning like, oh, this thing is coming, I need to prepare. So I don't know if I'm describing this very well, but I felt that really strongly just in my own kind of internal awareness. So that's been a big difference.
Alexandria Hoffman:I think a lot of it overlaps with counseling in so many ways.
Alexandria Hoffman:I mean, obviously your coaching routine and you know, is a little bit different than maybe like working at a practice, but this idea of prep process being different I've certainly experienced firsthand. Something they teach us a lot in counseling school is this idea that in order to show up for your clients, you have to show up for yourself. You have to know yourself so deeply in order to understand other people. It makes a lot of sense, right, but that requires a lot of internal work in order to reach that point, whether that's going to therapy, whether that's having your own coach, whether that's just like sitting and thinking and journaling about your life and your thoughts, and I think that is something that can be very challenging and exhausting in a different way. This idea of trying to understand yourself so deeply, that is something that can be very challenging and exhausting in a different way. This idea of trying to understand yourself so deeply, that's a lot of work I imagine you also have to do as a coach, just like a counselor.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, absolutely. And it's sort of like you can't. You can't take a client somewhere that you've never been Right. So it's like if I'm working with clients who are working with their own perfectionism and their own tendencies in that direction, like you better believe I that's the work that I'm doing too, and you know, if I were just like like you don't get to be a perfectionist, but I am gonna like organize my all my fonts so that they're perfect you know, it's absolutely true, and especially the stuff around.
Elizabeth Rowe:you know I, a lot of what I do is really holding up a mirror for my clients. It's about really challenging them, it's about really being oftentimes one of the only people in their lives who will speak honestly about what I'm seeing. Not what I, not my opinion, but just really reflecting what I'm seeing and reflecting patterns. And to do that from a place of integrity, to do that from a place where you're so clearly it's not because you're like annoyed by them or knew somebody who used to do that and it used to be. You know that you're really anchored in service and in a neutral, kind of loving, compassionate stance where you can say hard things to someone from that place.
Elizabeth Rowe:I think that requires a huge level of inner integrity and self-awareness, and that's a big piece of what I am committed to Like. For me, that's sort of foundational to the work that I do. It sounds very much similar to what you're doing as well. Yeah, yeah, I love these overlaps. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, the overlaps are so great, right, I mean, I think it's why I've enjoyed working with both coaches and with therapists, because they offer different things. But this idea of reflecting and not necessarily being like this is what you have to do, which is definitely not the role of a therapist, but to reflect back in a way that's helpful and meaningful and, like you said, with lots of integrity. I've learned we practice a lot of these listening skills, like literal counseling skills. I took a counseling skills class this semester and it's really sort of blown my mind in terms of just how I listen to people. I'd like to think I was a pretty good listener before I do a podcast.
Alexandria Hoffman:I've been a musician my whole life. I've held space for difficult conversations through Sound Mind, but something about counseling, lens listening and coaching probably lens listening is it's very different to me and it's funny. I don't know if you've experienced this when you started coaching, but I started to listen to regular people in everyday conversations the same way I listen as a counselor, and it was a lot of blurred lines. For a while I was like wait, I can respond. I don't have to reflect back, it's okay, I can just be in a conversation with someone.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, I'm curious, in this sort of counseling skills class that you took and you talked about these listening skills too. I mean you probably could spend an hour going into all that but. If there was like one or two that you think were the most revolutionary for you or transformative, yeah.
Alexandria Hoffman:This idea of broaching is so fascinating to me. I also took multicultural counseling class this semester, which is a class that just blew my mind. I mean, I'm no stranger to anti-racism concepts and the importance of DEI and, as a woman of color and queer woman of color, I'm no stranger to intersectionality, but the idea of how to bring it into conversations in the counseling space was really mind blowing to me. Um, and this idea that broaching as a concept it's a little hard to explain but, like it's, this idea of um talking about somebody's identity or not, talking about somebody's identity and how they play a role in their lives it can also be. Broaching can also be an internal process of what are my biases about the client, based on what I know about their identity, and how does that, how do I address that for myself? Like, what does that mean to me? So that required a lot of thinking, a lot of internal work. I don't know if you've experienced that as well. I'm sure you have.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, I acknowledge you for that. That's yeah. Yeah, it's great, and I mean it sounds like you're relating to this very much the way I relate to all of this too, which is that when you can develop a greater awareness or build a skill or uncover a blind spot, a lot of the work that I do with clients is really helping them see their blind spots. We all have them right, and so it's like the day that you discover one or that you access new awareness. I'm like this is awesome, Like I love it.
Elizabeth Rowe:It's so exciting. It's exciting for me If it's my self-awareness that is deepening. It's so exciting for a client If it's theirs. I love it. And it's kind of an infinite arena to be in, in a way, because there's always more layers to all of this and learning and evolving as a human. Yeah, it's so fun. Yeah, such a privilege it is.
Alexandria Hoffman:And it's building muscles. Like you said, and I think you've said before maybe it was our last episode, I don't know but that you and you said it here too that you like doing things at a really high level. But you also just like, yeah, that you like doing things at a high level, you like being really good at something, like really excellent at something, I think, is the word that you use, and I really I'm very, I'm very hungry about this career path, which is like definitely a sign that it's the right direction. And, yeah, it sounds like you know things have been for you like just really really positive. Um, even though, like, some of these things are challenging, they're like a fun sort of challenge in a lot of ways. I find, um, I'm curious like, overall, what would you say if there's been anything other than the routine that's been difficult? Like what has been the hardest part of this transition and what has been like the best and easiest part of it?
Elizabeth Rowe:yeah, I think, um, the hardest part is that I am in the very early stages, like baby stages, of developing the um. It's both the skills but also just understanding the terrain of what I'm doing, enough to be able to sort of manage my schedule. So, like I am overscheduled right now and I was like how did this happen? Like what happened? Like this is insane to me that I'm overscheduled. And then of course, it's because there's a variety of factors in that and I'm very much practicing being gentle and compassionate with myself about this because it's new, it's a new skill.
Elizabeth Rowe:My schedule was jam-packed, uped when I was running both careers at once and there were very few choices I had to make because the BSO schedule was completely predetermined and set in stone and then everything else just fit around that.
Elizabeth Rowe:So now I have kind of an open space.
Elizabeth Rowe:But one of my friends gave me a, a mug that says world's best boss, and every once in a while I feel like I should tape over the best and write like world's like still developing her skills boss, because like I'm like I'm not the best boss for myself always and I gotta learn.
Elizabeth Rowe:I'm working on that. So that's definitely a and that is actually something that I the sort of a piece of that too is that I'm sort of on the transition right now in terms of the level of support that I have in my career. So I'm in a couple of different coaching groups and I'm becoming aware that it's time for me to sort of get to a higher, higher level of support for myself in this new space that I'm in. So I'm like I need my person who's going to really help, or productive or accurate, to really think that you can go at this alone and it can feel a little lonely is not the right word because I'm in conversation meaningful conversation with people all day long, so I don't at all feel lonely. And I do notice, when you're out on your own running your own business, that there is a sense of having to do it all on your own, which actually isn't accurate. So I'm having to kind of figure my way through that as well.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, that's that can be tricky, especially when a lot of what you do, I think, is online. It can feel a little isolating, maybe in some ways, when you're not like going to a physical space every single day, maybe to do your work. Are you mostly doing your work from from home?
Elizabeth Rowe:Almost entirely so. Most of my clients are not in Boston, they're all over the country, sometimes outside of the country, and it works really nicely to to have these Zoom conversations. It works really nicely to have these Zoom conversations. It facilitates a lot of connection with people that wouldn't otherwise be possible. And, you're absolutely right, there's just the sort of casual contact that comes with being in a workplace right, it's the water cooler stuff and all of that that is not there. I'm pretty introverted and I very much thrive in deep conversations. That's always been the space that I've been happiest in, so I'm not somebody who's like I need to be around people all the time.
Alexandria Hoffman:Sure, and it's part of the adjustment, I think, yeah Well and working from home, as we learned during the pandemic, can really blur the lines of your routine in terms of, well, I'm home so I could do more work. I could have like I do have technically more hours in the day. I'm not commuting I technically have like an extra 30 minutes, so I can see that setting those boundaries might be tricky.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yes, and that is absolutely my opportunity for growth. It's a big one for me, absolutely.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, yeah, and it sounds like with time, you know, that will definitely, that will definitely come.
Elizabeth Rowe:I think so, and also I think once we're aware of what it is that we want to be working on or looking at, you find your way forward. So it's it's. I see it as an opportunity for me and I'm confident I'll get there, and I'm also being gentle with myself about not necessarily having it all figured out at this very moment.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, and I was going to ask how are you checking in with yourself throughout this time and where are those areas of support for you? You mentioned being in some coaching groups and maybe also maybe possibly finding a coach of your own. It sounded like.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, I'm in transition between coaches and so I and it's I gave myself permission to just sort of experience the end of the my time with the BSO and just I gave myself this fall just to sort of get my bearings. And it's like this little tiny voice inside of me started to pipe up just a few weeks ago saying okay, you've gotten your bearings enough to know that now it's time to like get some assistance in. You know, I'm oriented enough that I'm not. I I'm ready to have some assistance in kind of helping me get to the next level and really make my life the way I want it to be.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah.
Elizabeth Rowe:And it just you know, I think it's just everybody, I think we all go through seasons and so I really wanted to not rush that season of transition out of the BSO and into this next phase. And so I think you know that season is coming, the transition season is sort of coming to a close, and now it's the sort of growing a new thing that's starting to feel like the next right step for me.
Alexandria Hoffman:Yeah, that's great. What has been the best or easiest part of this transition for you?
Elizabeth Rowe:I think it's just you know, it's the same thing that drew me to this work in the beginning, which is just that extraordinary human beings who I have the privilege of being in conversation with, who are, you know, it's just an incredible privilege to be in a trusting, intimate, vulnerable, courageous conversation with somebody who is learning a new skill, setting a new boundary, taking a big leap into a new professional role, walking away from something big.
Elizabeth Rowe:You know, all of these things that occur in life like having a baby, like, um ending a relationship, um, moving up in leadership, changing careers, like all of that stuff and the people that I am in conversation with are just so deeply inspiring to me and I I sort of pinched myself that this is what my days are filled with. And, you know, music was also inspiring, but in it, in it just in a really different way, and there's just this really profound um, because I I connect with the privilege of it really regularly like and I mean that not in a sort of global sense of like, how privileged it is, but like in a very personal sense of how privileged it is for me to be in, like, for somebody to open their mind and their heart and their lives to me in this way feels sacred, and that is such a joy and that has been a through line of this work from the beginning.
Alexandria Hoffman:I love that and I still relate to it On just a small scale, having one semester of school under my belt. We do practice interviews with people in our classes and I was going through a practice interview with my partner and by the last we had three or four sessions together throughout the semester. By the fourth session we're doing a full 40 to 50 minute mock therapy session. Essentially and I'd started with my own sort of maybe biases of my own and was working through them and especially in our last session know the client or partner like opened up to me in a very real way about something very personal to them and I just remember sitting there thinking like, like it made me pause, um, that this person was willing to be so vulnerable with me and felt safe enough to be so vulnerable with me, essentially almost a stranger to them in many ways, but being able to hold that space for that person to process those things. I felt like this is the good stuff right here, definitely.
Elizabeth Rowe:Yeah, yeah. That's so wonderful for you that you're having that experience, and it's one thing to kind of imagine it or to think about it, and it's another thing to just actually experience it in your own life and connect with that.
Alexandria Hoffman:And I love that you're able to do it. You know now full steam ahead and you know figuring out, you're sort of weeding through. You know the challenges of it, but also it's a great opportunity for you for this next. You know step and you know I hope we can keep checking in annually now to see how it's going. I'm so curious. It's just been so fun to watch, watch this, this all change for you over the last, you know, three years really. So I just I love that. I love that you're doing this and I'm so appreciative of you sharing it with us.
Elizabeth Rowe:Well it's. It's a joy to be in conversation with you for all sorts of reasons, but especially, too, because you're on your own path that is exciting and different and rich and rewarding and challenging, and it's such a great example to set. And it's not that you are doing it for that reason or that I'm doing it for that reason and I think it's so valuable, again, to be open about your experiences and your process, to make it real for other people so that when they're imagining their own version of something like this, there's a way to connect with that concept. Right, it's not so abstract, yeah.
Alexandria Hoffman:That it's incredibly possible. I just got a text from someone today, a family member, who said I'm so happy and proud of you for going back to school. I'm feeling like a little burned out but I have some hope, knowing that like I can, just I can make this change, because I've seen you make this change and I was like, oh my gosh, wow. I think it's nice to it's always just amazing to have conversations again with people. I've noticed the theme of this podcast sort of shift towards people who have pivoted to other things outside of music, because this podcast sort of follows my personal narrative. So I just I love this. I have one more fun question for you to end our time here today, which is what are you watching or listening to right now that you kind of just can't get enough of?
Elizabeth Rowe:Oh, you know, it's a great question. I've been on this sort of wild expedition into non-American television right. So I've been watching. I watched all I don't know how many seasons there are of Borgen, which is about Danish, it's about Danish politics, it's like the west wing of Denmark with this woman prime minister, and she's amazing and I sort of feel like and then I moved on there's another Danish film called, or show called, rita, and I was like I'm starting to it's not that I understand Danish absolutely not but like the language is starting to feel sort of familiar to me. I'm like this is wild so that and.
Elizabeth Rowe:I also um, watched and just gobbled up um the extraordinary attorney woo, which is Korean and yeah, so I, you know it's um, it's just just fun and I'm I'm not, I'm not also above reading, terrible trashy like romances and I won't, yes, go ahead.
Alexandria Hoffman:No, I'm just. I was just nodding because I'm so excited to talk about those things too, because I love I read a lot of trashy romance novels this year so there's a whole genre of like nerd romance.
Elizabeth Rowe:It's like the chess player or the like the science professor or something like that. I'm like I was telling my family about this over Thanksgiving. I think they were just scandalized and horrified. But I'm like, hey look, I can't all be highbrow all the time. I mean no, no.
Alexandria Hoffman:I mean with the amount of academic reading I'm currently doing. I need something to turn my brain off at night. So I've basically read like almost every Sarah J Maas novel in the last 12 months, and I'm not upset about it. It's gotten me back into reading, which is so fun.
Elizabeth Rowe:I love that. Yeah, thank you.
Alexandria Hoffman:Thank you Awesome. Thank you so much. It's always such a pleasure. I look forward to you know, maybe a year from now, checking in again. Thank you so much for joining us, as always.
Elizabeth Rowe:Thank you for having me, and I'm excited to watch you follow your path too.
Alexandria Hoffman:The Sound Mind podcast is hosted by Alex Hoffman and edited by Dan Monte. Theme music is also by Dan Monte. Learn more about Sound Mind at soundmindmusicianorg. Thanks for tuning in.
